Hi, guys!
So here is the prompt for your graded discussion, for those of you who did not take part in or were absent when the graded small group discussions took place. Here is what we're looking for:
A- Respond to the prompt. Use quotes or instances from the book to support your thoughts on the subject. Make any connections you can or just talk about your own experiences and thoughts. It helps to end your post in a question, so that those reading can have something to directly responding to instead of just saying, "I agree" or "I disagree".
B- Respond to AT LEAST two other students' postings. Don't just write, "Yeah, bro, I agree," say WHY you agree, or bring up a whole new position on a subject. The possibilities are endless!!!
The discussion will be closed on the day before Tahnksgiving break (so Tuesday, November 20).
Below is the question............. good luck!
So here is the prompt for your graded discussion, for those of you who did not take part in or were absent when the graded small group discussions took place. Here is what we're looking for:
A- Respond to the prompt. Use quotes or instances from the book to support your thoughts on the subject. Make any connections you can or just talk about your own experiences and thoughts. It helps to end your post in a question, so that those reading can have something to directly responding to instead of just saying, "I agree" or "I disagree".
B- Respond to AT LEAST two other students' postings. Don't just write, "Yeah, bro, I agree," say WHY you agree, or bring up a whole new position on a subject. The possibilities are endless!!!
The discussion will be closed on the day before Tahnksgiving break (so Tuesday, November 20).
Below is the question............. good luck!
We
see in these chapters many changes, and we see that Okonkwo “deeply grieves” for
his tribe and kinsmen due to the White Man’s appearance. We see here the
different perspectives- we see the tribesmen who are still clinging to their
beliefs and their Gods, such as Okonkwo, and we have the White Man who is coming
in to “settle” the land, bringing with them new ideology and government.
Consider what the White Man perhaps has to offer Okonwko’s tribe: new medicine,
a new form of government, et cetera. Also consider the perspective of Okonkwo’s
tribesmen: this is their home where tradition means everything. Does the “white
man” have authority in Okonkwo’s tribe? Consider other times man has tried (and
perhaps succeeded…) in taking over land. Is this something that is a privilege
for the more powerful, or is it a degradation of the
victims?
By looking at our own United States history, it is evident that strong groups of people have been taking over weaker groups for a long time and not just in Africa. In the United States, the Europeans thought it was okay to just relocate Native Americans that were in the way of what they were trying to do with the new land in America. In this case, it is clearly not right that the Europeans just forced the Native Americans away from their homes where their families had lived forever.
ReplyDeleteIn Okonkwo's tribe, the White Man, was there to spread their ideals on the tribe, but they also brought opportunity for a better life with medicine, an organized government, and perhaps better opportunities for women within the tribe. In the beginning, it was evident that many in Okonkwo's tribe were skeptical of the White Man's ideals and still had the warrior mindset, but as time went on, they eventually submitted to the ideals because the men realized that they could not fight the laws and punishment that the White Men inflicted on them. I am not sure whether or not I believe that stronger nations should take over weaker ones, but I do think that this has to happen in a more civilized way. If one nation can really improve another, why shouldn't they at least try if they can?
While I agree that some tribesmen might benefit from the advances of the "white man", don't you think that the term "better life" is subjective? While the Europeans may value science and organized government, the members of Igbo may value their traditional culture and ideals over such "improvements". I believe that "better life" is all a matter of perspective.
DeleteAgain, whether it is a better life or not should not be the issue. People should be allowed to live whatever life they want to and make their own choices. No matter what the settlers may think of is "better" should not matter in that situation. The tribesmen should not be under the dictation of another group of people, no matter how "better" their lives are becoming.
DeleteI agree with Jason when he said, "don't you think the term better life is subjective"? Throughout the book it was proved that the Igbo people believed strongly in their beliefs. They were profoundly religious and regarded that religion with great seriousness. Although a few tribesmen were easily converted into Christianity ,I believe that the 'White Man' did not have authority in the village. Despite the possible assets, I believe the missionaries would not be creating a better life due to the fact that they valued their beliefs greatly already.
DeleteI do not believe that the white man has authority in Okonkwo's tribe. They are in someone else's homeland, and they need to respect the culture of the people living there, even though they may not agree. On page 146 in the book, one of the white men said "Your gods are not alive and cannot do you any harm, they are pieces of wood and stone." This was not taken well by the men of Mbanta. The men laughed at how foolish the white man was, thinking that their gods were harmless. The white man was very rude in saying this, because he disrespected the culture and beliefs of the Mbanta tribe. Just because his views are not the same as the Mbanta people does not mean that the tribe needs to believe what he does, and vice versa. Everyone should be able to believe in what they want, and should not be forced to follow a certain religion.
ReplyDeleteWhen land is being taken over, I do believe that it is a degradation of the victims. The people who take over treat the victims like their views and opinions don't matter. For example, When Christopher Columbus and the Spanish invaded North America, they did not care about the culture, beliefs, or views of the Native Americans. The Native Americans were forced to work in mines and on ranches and farms. Missionaries were also brought in to convert the Native Americans to Roman Catholic. Spanish people brought with them diseases, which spread to the Native Americans and killed them, because they had never been exposed and therefore were not immune. If the Spaniards had never invaded North America, the Native Americans would have been able to do what they wanted and believed what they wanted, and they would have been much better off.
I agree with you Sam. I think that people coming into another nation should be respectful of their culture. I do think that if one nation can help another, they should, even if they do not share the same religion.
DeleteI also agree that the settlers need to integrate themselves into the Africans' lives respectfully. While the introduction of European culture and technological advancements into African culture certainly has the potential to be beneficial, the Europeans disrespect towards the Africans is counter intuitive. Treating the Africans with respect would ensure peaceful relationships between the two groups, and increase the likelihood that Africans would convert to European ways, which is part of the European's intentions.
DeleteAgain, I agree with sam too. I think that without a doubt the settlers need to be respectful and respect the African culture and not force their own cultural beliefs upon another. And like Jason said, there would be peaceful realtions which may then cause the Africans to take up some of the European beliefs. But just coming in and directly forcing and overruling the Africans in their own terriotiy is completly disrespectful and the wrong way to do things.
DeleteThe European settlers, or "white men", have authority over some tribesmen potentially if it is the choice of the tribesmen, but ultimately do not have the right to submit the rest of the tribesmen to their authority. The settlers offer copious amounts of beneficial resources to the tribesmen, such as medicine and organized, orthodox government. I believe that as soon as tribesmen such as Nwoye took advantage of these resources and joined with the settlers, they submitted themselves to the authority of the settlers. On the other hand, members of the tribe who value traditional African culture and ideals, such as Okonkwo, deserve to remain apart from the authority of the settlers. It is, after all, their homeland, and they are entitled to their own values.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo and other tribesmen who wish to remain apart from the authority of the settlers are remarkably similar to Native Americans who had wished to maintain their original lives when Europeans began to settle North America. Just as in Okonkwo's tribe, Europeans came to America promoting their own ideals, deeming themselves superior to the seemingly primitive Native Americans. While colonization of North America has led to the birth of the United Sates, it is often forgotten that Native Americans were forced to submit to the authority of European settlers, when most of them wished to keep their own values in traditions. Just as in Things Fall Apart, The Native Americans should have been entitled to living in their own homeland as they pleased and staying apart from the settlers if they wished to.
I agree entirely with this. Once the tribesmen have given into the "white man's" ideals, they really have submitted to their ideals. However, the other tribesmen should be left be. They are living on their own land and should be able to live by their own values. Obviously their have always been instances in history where men have conquered other races, such as the Europeans and the Native Americans. However, this does not give them the right to invade another group of people. Something such as this should never be the right of the more powerful
DeleteJack's comment pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say. I agree that the people who want to follow the new religion should be allowed to, but the people who want to continue believing in their previous gods should not be bothered.
DeleteThe white man was very wrong to come into the tribes own land and try to imprint his own philosophy and ideas. He had not right to just step foot on the tribes land and try to change their beliefs. The white man's first mistake was believing he could come to this tribe and everyone follow and believe in his ideas and philosophies. The white man should have respected that each tribe has a different culture and religion to follow and that they all plan to stay different from eachother. I agree with Sam under the line of thinking the white man had no right to come to this tribe trying to spread his beliefs. Placing myself in this tribe i too would be violated and angry that this man of no importance tried to come in and change ones beliefs and faith.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. The white man should not have taken advantage of the tribes, he should have respected their views. I know that if someone came to our town and tried to force us to believe what they wanted us to, I would not be happy.
DeleteI also agree completely with both Maeve and Sam. I believe it was extremely wrong for the White Man to unexpectedly show up and demolish the culture of the Igbo people. Although they may have thought they were helping the "less fortunate" by bringing technology and new improvements, their main goal was to convert them to Christianity, knowing they already had strong beliefs. The Igbo people value their gods and goddess greatly and they regard those values with great seriousness. The White Man should have considered the aftermath affect of taking over the tribe and changing their beliefs entirely. Then again...they may have not cared. Do you think it is possible to reach a "happy medium" without causing any drastic changes to the less powerful society? If so, how?
DeleteThe settlers should not have any authority of the tribesmen of Okonkwo's village. The tribe should be able to have their own ideals and values within their own village. One race should not be able to force their own opinions on another race, no matter the benefits. Anything that the "white man" could possibly give to the tribe would not outweigh the benefits of freedom. That being said, whether or not the "white men" should have have authority has nothing to do with the fact that they do in fact have authority within the tribe. They have more advanced technology and are more powerful. They have built up a powerful base of support within the tribe, and can easily force their ideals upon the tribe. One instance is when they capture the leaders in the tribe and force them pay bags coweries for their crimes against the church. The white men should have no right to do this, but they have the power and authority to do so. In reality, the people in Okonkwo's tribe are powerless to stop the advances of the white men. They have no authority in the matter, because of the superior force of the white men,
ReplyDeleteThats a good point, I never even thought about how technology would play a role in this. Because the white people had technology, they were able to come in and build churches easily and quickly. This allowed them to populate the tribes and force their religion upon people. Because they had the power to do so, they were able to take advantage of the tribesmen and build churches on their land.
DeleteI agree, I believe that the tribe should be able to have their own beliefs because it is their own culuture. Another culture shouldn't come in and force their beliefs upon another culture that already has their own system. I also agree with the technology part, I believe that they have more power so they are able to do what they please and that shouldn't be the case.
DeleteI believe that many culutres do that. The white man was trying to come in and put his culuture and beliefs onto the African tribe. At first Okonkwo and his tribe were very skeptical of the white man but as the book went on they finally gave in to him. The white man was stronger than the tribe and it just goes to show that the stronger nations tend to take over the weaker ones. I believe that this shouldn't happen. I think that each culutre and nation should be left alone with their own beliefs, why should we force our culture onto others that already have their own? Even though the white man brought many helpful things and sources, I believe that the tribe should have been left alone.
ReplyDeleteIn my mind, the European settlers should not have authority over the tribe or any of the people. The Igbo people have been living in that area, practicing their own beliefs for thousands of years. Okonkwo and all the other tribesmen have every right to "deeply grieve" for their tribe. In the Igbo culture, they believe profoundly in their religion and worship of many gods. It is wrong for the White Man to appear suddenly and believe that there is no harm in "settling" into their land. Although they may bring the idea of new improvements and technology, it is unfair for the weaker population. However, due to the fact the Europeans are extremely powerful, it is easy for them to take over the tribe and influence them to convert into Christianity.
ReplyDeleteWhen the Missionaries first arrived, Okonkwo and his tribe were very skeptical of the White Men and their purpose. However, as the book continued it became clear that they were very powerful and influential. On page 152, Okonkwo summarized his feelings on the White Men. "The white man is very clever. He came quietly with religion. We were amused by his foolishness and allowed him to stay. Now he has won our brothers, and our clan can no longer act as one". Sadly, Okonkwo's thoughts were accurate and as the White Men became more and more powerful, they began taking over the tribe along with all of the people. In the end, the aftermath effect of the White Man's settlement cost Okonkwo his life. Although his suicide was extreme, it is often common for horrible events to occur in a society after their freedom is taken away. An similar example of this is when Algeria was taken over by the French. Their land, customs and freedom were taken, eventually leading to a massive war and many deaths. Overall, I believe the Missionaries had no authority to take over Okonkwo and his tribe and take away the one belief they cherished the most-their religion.
Other than power, why do you think the White Man was so successful taking over? Do you think it is fair so many smaller societies are constantly being stripped of their freedoms? What factor needs to be changed in order to have this stop happening?
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